Intro  0:03  
Welcome to the Heart Soul Wisdom podcast, a journey of self discovery and transformation. Moira Sutton and her amazing guests share real life stories, tools and strategies to inspire and empower you have to create and live your best life. Come along on the journey and finally blast through any fears, obstacles and challenges that have held you back in the past so you can live your life with the joy, passion and happiness that you desire. Now, here's your Host, Create the Life you Love, Empowerment Life Coach, Moira Sutton

Moira  0:59  
Welcome to season three, Episode 46 Welcoming in a New Year with your Unmasked Self, with a very special guest, Author and Psychotherapist Katherine Jansen-Byrkit. Katherine received her Master's in Public Health from the University of Washington in 1992, and spent over a decade in public health managing violence prevention and teen health programs. But over time she experienced an inner stirring. What ensued was a process of reflection, curiosity and ultimately, trust, as she dove into her current career as a licensed professional counselor. Following in the footsteps of her father, who was also a therapist, she graduated in 2004 from Lewis and Clark College, and has now enjoyed over 15 years in private practice, offering not only holistic psychotherapy, but retreats and workshops. In 2019, Katherine published her first book, River to Ocean: Living in the Flow of Wakefulness, a book I would highly recommend. By the way, I love this book. Her book reflects the human voyage of finding your way to an awakened self. As with a river that traverses steep mountains and winding valleys, our inner and outer worlds can be encumbered by a lack of connection to ourselves, or beliefs, an anxious mind, preoccupation with death or compromised relationships to others. In River to Ocean Katherine explores nine aspects of wakefulness, offering insights, practices, and her own and others inspirational stories from the field. So without further adieu, it is my pleasure to welcome back, Katherine Jansen-Byrkit. Welcome, Katherine.

Katherine  2:42  
Thank you so much. I love being back.

Moira  2:45  
Yeah, I love you being back too. We both know that my listeners will see that a couple of weeks kind of went by with storms. And Catherine, you had storms down in your area that closed down the recording that you and I could have a talk that day. I had it here. Like lots of things happening on the planet, not only

Katherine  3:05  
Yes, yes, such as life. And we, we found our way through back to each other.

Moira  3:12  
Yeah. How are you doing all this uncertainty? And, you know, you've talked about politics and, you know, COVID and delta variants and Omicron. What are you seeing for yourself? How are you doing? And then also, what are you seeing in your clients? what's showing up? 

Katherine  3:30  
Well I appreciate that question. You know, we are facing the beginning of year three, in this journey, in this pandemic journey. The political journey in the States feels a bit longer in terms of how dynamic it's been and for many a turmoil kind of time. So, you know, what I would offer is I work very hard to keep my own buoyancy alive. And that, for me is about focusing on those things that provide inspiration, Moira, a sense of goodness, connection, hopefulness. And then I bring that same kind of frame to the work that I do with my clients. You know, we can't do a lot about lots of the things that are happening on the planet but we can very much do a good amount about our own inner happiness and and this the life that we lead on a more personal basis. So I would finish with I'm encouraging people so it's really showing up in my practice kind of COVID fatigue Omicron has really kicked that into another gear of you know, keeping it honest. It's it's really important so that we come out of this emotionally healthy, that if you're having a hard day, you don't try to transcend that by having positive feelings, for example. So for some people, they really need to kind of work through some of their fears or their fatigue, or their senses, a lot of it now is some loss. That is just a matter of grieving. And then that those feeling states kind of move. So that's kind of a concrete piece in terms of how I would offer how we would want to navigate this time.

Moira  5:17  
I think that's important to hear, even myself to hear that if you go into any anxiety or sadness, because I know I've been feeling that, like, 'Where's that coming from?' Is that the collective? Is that Is that me? Like, what is that? And I'm, you know, and I don't, I don't necessarily want to go there, or I feel like crying or, you know, the beginning of this, you know, when I spoke to guests, and I was like, this is okay, because I'm an entrepreneur, I work from home, it didn't really change things. But yeah, as the times going along, it's, it's and you don't have a holiday, you're in each other's space, you know, is I kind of feel as if sometimes anger comes up. And that's not a feeling that I really have. So, yeah, again, there's an emotion when that comes up, how do you dive into something you teach like self expression there? And you talk about projection, expectation, which is disclosed anger? How do you dive in this emotion of anger and fear? By honoring it, for sure. But that's yeah, that's quite scary for some people.

Katherine  6:17  
That's right. I think the in the day, you know, there were there was an idea, that idea that there were negative and positive emotions, and we've really, we understand that very differently now. And kind of clinical and the world of psychotherapy, there are emotions. And what can be negative if we want to go with that terminology are unregulated emotions, for example. So anger innately is not negative or positive. It's a human experience, but when we repress it, which can create depression, or if we are unregulated in it, which can create harm. When we have explosive anger, that's actually the thing we need to talk about. So what I teach people is to keep it super simple, really do body practice around their emotions. And if we're feeling angry, we simply are present to that and let that move through us. And it does move. And for any of us with children, we've really seen that we can witness that in young children where it just it's like a little storm that goes through, just like joy can be like, this just explosive, like expansive, I should say, feeling of wanting to share that joy. So emotions don't last - core emotions, when we're actually in the moment of them - very long, I say something like three to five minutes, sometimes even less. So I think we can have a big story, I guess Moira about feeling that anger or letting that sadness happen as if we will get swallowed up in it. But that actually is not true. If we just have the physical and emotional experience, it's fairly transient. Our mind can keep some things going. But that's a different conversation.

Moira  8:01  
That's true, we can tell ourselves these stories over and over again are Yeah, yeah. So it's important that what you're saying, Katherine that you don't just shove it aside or put it because it's just gonna, what it's going to grow bigger and bigger, that emotion is. You have to just be present, you know, watch it, maybe what like, as an observer?

Katherine  8:23  
Well, observer, and again, there's kind of a body sensation, just as you know yourself, where we have a feeling, it's a physiological experience, it isn't just a mental experience. And so we want to be thinking of waves that gets a wave all the way through from a beginning, middle and, and in my office, I try to create a space where if we touch into something deep, there's a felt experience of that. And there's a safety and an opportunity to let that kind of come up and emerge, and then move. Things have to come up, to come out and release. And so that's the important thing about not disassociating from our emotions, or our body. And so that's that idea that all emotion kind of welcoming and befriending emotion. You know, our theme today was kind of the idea of unmasking, bringing our unmasked selves to the New Year. And for some people, for example, say I, I have a mask where I tend to please others. But there's there's needs and feelings I have inside that I don't either know, because I'm not in touch with them or I ignore. So I might sometimes if I keep pleasing others or another person, a certain relationship, have resentment that comes up over time. So if I don't feel that resentment, which is a form of anger, then then I'm going to continue to stay in that mask for longer than is good for me, for example. So taking a mask off means I have to sometimes feel those feelings underneath that mask. And that's an uncomfortable thing. That's an uncomfortable thing, if ever mask of perfectionism, it's usually covering up a sense of not being good enough and worthiness, so then we have to touch into feel some of that, to be able to then to heal that. Does that make sense? 

Moira  10:17  
It definitely does. Do you feel like everyone has a sense of not enough on some level?

Katherine  10:24  
You know, I, I always thought, you know, raising children, they would start with this fresh slate of I would give them those messages. And even though they live in a culture, that's highly kind of achievement, oriented and, and kind of egoic there would be a chance that somebody can come out of this unscathed, and I don't know, you know, as you know, in my book, in the section I have about worth and not being feeling good enough. I have a story from somebody who, you know, didn't have a father that was active in his life. And it was kind of a classic case of I don't deserve his time and attention, so I don't deserve his love. So I'm undeserving, I'm unworthy. But when my daughter read the book, as one of my readers, she said, "Mom, I've struggled with it, I really have struggled with feeling good enough." And so love like, okay, okay. And then. So she and her story is in there, to the point of how we don't feel good enough can happen in a lot of different ways through kind of classic trauma experiences. But more in more subtle ways, too.

Moira  11:35  
I love that. And when you were talking about that, I remember the story of the gentleman who felt that with his father. But as you worked with him, and he went through his own inner work that he discovered that his father also didn't know how to reach out to him. And he wanted that connection. So I thought that was beautiful.

Katherine  11:51  
Yes, that's right. And and they had quite a moment upon his father's passing, where they had wished for more time to kind of be able to have a moment of truth with one another. And that was a moment for he and his father of completely being completely unmasked. And it's one of the most powerful human experiences we can have with another is that deeply undefended state, where it's just our true authentic self. And there's so much then that love can just kind of flow back and forth.

Moira  12:26  
And love really, you know, to really, it starts with self love, right? Like to really love yourself accept yourself. Like, you know, one thing that just speaks to me is like the, about being identity and confused about identity or transgender LGBTQ community. You know, what do you see? Do you have clients in that area? And how do you help them? Or, you know, because I think people are being more aware and educated that first of all, we're female and male. And secondly, you know, how we show up in the world and embrace each other and embrace our diversity? You know, what's your? 

Katherine  13:09  
Well I think our I think we're in a sea change ultimately, on the planet right now. And I don't think it's necessarily an easy ride, for those that have, are not a dominant culture in any form of dominant culture, honestly. So the bravery of coming forward and saying this is I don't identify as the gender I was born to, or I feel more resonant to a non binary gender fluid experience. You know, I don't think we're in a place I wish we were in, in our cultures and in the world where all all truth is kind of welcome at that identity level. So I think it takes great courage. And I do have a number of clients that have been on that journey. And also a dear friend, actually the editor of my book. And so I am here, it's always about just being present to and kind of undoing aloneness. I don't personally relate to that, in terms of being transgender, or non binary, but you know, the, the, the sense of community around that is very important. And then the kind of basic tools and practices we can all use. Go a go a far distance. But I guess my my ultimate answer is, I think it it takes a great deal of courage and sometimes the journey is to work with that person on how do we develop the resilience to be able to walk that walk and be expressed in the world in a way that is counter to dominant culture.

Moira  14:48  
Thank you for that. That's just Yeah, I want my listeners to hear that if they themselves are experienced that or they friends or family because how do you help someone when you can see their in pain. And, you know, we're not even talking about intrinsic worth. They, they don't know who they are, and they're scared to come out. So let's dive into that definition of intrinsic worth that you talk about. And how how do people develop this, like develop their word, reclaim who they are. And I love that you say too it's not, it's not that you have to be somebody or do something or that identity just to be.

Katherine  15:26  
Just to be? Well, I like to fashion to when we were very, very young, because this is, if we really thought we weren't good enough, then we wouldn't have potentially cried for food, because we wouldn't have deserve that. So if we think about a newborn, and infants before there's much condition or any condition in at all, or at least much something perhaps in utero, but not at the level of worth, maybe anxiety, then something happened along the way Moira. And that's the that's the curiosity, I like to develop in people. So if we were born intrinsically enough, or else again, we would not have, you know, advocated for our needs, or just existed and, and been able to be comfortable in our own skin. What is it that happened along the way, and for some people, they can point to a very specific thing as I can. My father left at 14, as you know, and ended it in a way that was pretty unconscious, which he then repaired, which is incredible. But the scar tissue was kind of set none the last. But others, they don't have an incident or a specific thing. So we have to decide whether it's either intrinsic or not kind of at the level of our philosophy about it. Sometimes for not everybody's parents, of course, but for some people, their animal, actually, their pet is just intrinsically good enough, even if they're difficult at times, or their children are and so I try to connect with that sense of knowing it not from the head, but more from the heart. Can you just know that your kids are good enough. Do you know that feels in your bones? Well, that's what we want to imagine an embodied state of intrinsic worth. You know, this isn't a new concept. Many have written about it in the self help movement for many years. And a lot of people kind of go from a top down approach of trying to work a mental muscle; if I just believe it. And if I just say it to myself, it'll become mine, it'll internalize and I think that goes a distance. But for some of us, we really have to go back to where the injury was around our work, say somebody was bullied, for example. That's where they started to feel like this is happening to me, because of me, there's something wrong with me. So we have to actually go back to the trauma. You know, and then my my tool in the toolkit is to kind of help people have a clear conscious part of them, maybe their adult self or their higher self, a spiritual self, that can talk to that younger injured part of them that's confused about their worth.

Moira  18:13  
You have you wrote this. Or you added in your book, this beautiful poem, that really, you know, I would love to segue into that, that if you could read that,

Katherine  18:23  
Oh, I would love to. This is I hope I say the author's name correctly. Nayyirah waheed and the poem is: As You Are. as you are, says the universe after you answer, as you are, says the universe before you answer as you are, says the universe when you answer as you are, says the universe how you answer as you are, says the universe. Why you answer because you are happening now. Right now, right at this moment, and you're happening is beautiful. The thing that both keeps me alive and brings me to my knees you don't even know how breathtaking you are, as you are says the universe through tears

Moira  19:36  
Oh, that's so heartfelt. I'll tell you... so happy that you put that in there. That's such a beautiful and for people like that something would be great for people to have in front of themselves every day, you know when they have it?

Katherine  19:49  
Yes, that's right. The other largest place we can go so there's that idea of it's it exists within us. The idea is something happened along the way. So we want to go back to what happened and heal that thing. And that may be trauma or, but in my book is, you know, I present the idea that we are more than just our human self. So, if the universe, if source, if presence is expansiveness, and beauty and light and love, then how if we are that, if we are that in form, then how can we be any less than that. So, that's kind of my finish with people who resonate around that spiritual piece. And that's just, you know, kind of like all angles that we that we move toward that reclamation of our intrinsic worth.

Moira  20:50  
As if we all came from that standpoint, and again, as I said earlier, you know, celebrate our diversity as a gift. You know, I think it would be pretty boring if we all walked around the same with the same Yes.

Katherine  21:04  
That's right. Well, unfortunately, difference developmentally for children in particular, because of their need to belong, difference can can create a sense of, you know, less than, and we can as adults, intellectually, not believe that. But our belief system develops long before we hit adulthood and our sense of self. And so and then, of course, that plays out, some people don't move toward that even intellectual appreciation of diversity that being different is no less than. And so that diversity piece bring can bring up that those feelings so, so deeply for folks, for sure.

Moira  21:49  
Yep, you talk about reframing yourself. So expand on that a bit more, and how people can do that. To start loving themselves and start Yeah, embracing every part of themselves, the good, the bad, the ugly, we all have it.

Katherine  22:03  
That's right. Well, what I have seen within my own journey, and certainly and now since we've met, and just if I track all the dates, it's, it's going on 18 to 20 years of clinical practice, that we the bandwidth that we have for ourselves, and I'll and we can get into a couple of examples of a detail around that is ultimately the bandwidth we have for others. So if I am, the amount I love myself is ultimately the amount I have capacity to love another and people don't understand that. They truly believe that I can love someone else and not love me. And I can do acts of service and I can have loving feelings, but I can tell you there's a there's a glass ceiling there. But even more specifically for example, if I am going back to what we were speaking of earlier, disassociated from my own emotions, like I'm not connected to my emotional self, there is absolutely a limit about how emotionally available I can be to you. That's how my human system works. And so, you know, if I really want to be a good friend or a good partner, or a good parent, or, you know, clinician even, that relationship to self and allowing myself or or befriending my own emotions as part of befriending me is is then translated to others. So that idea of befriending ourselves I think, and as for many people, ideas of selfishness and an idea that if I have a relationship with myself, I'm a narcissist and in fact it works the opposite in my experience personally and professionally that the more we love ourselves, the more our bucket fills and we have much more generosity towards others

Moira  23:57  
Well let's let's just again talk about a bit about you know, our ego you know, like when you see your narcissist like ego, friend or foe and you know the you say that the egos ego, strength and how it's such a big part of our sense of self and relationships. So, is it to be at ease with our ego? Is it you know, to shift from self to judgment, you know, you're talking about narcissism, how does that all fit in with the pool?

Katherine  24:23  
Kinda fit together, yes. When the book I it was a very important piece because in spiritual community and spiritual path for many people, there's this idea of, of transcending the ego without an appreciation for if you and I Moira did not have an ego structure in terms of our human development, we would not be in this conversation. We would likely not be functional. It is a critical part of having a sense of self initially. It's more when people talk about ego, especially ego In adulthood, it's often a fragile sense of self and not having enough initial ego strength, that then creates kind of a, again, a fragile sense of self. And that can look like self involvement. It can go to the extreme of narcissism and so that it's a little bit complicated in understanding that both the role of it but then the - that's why said Friend or foe - that if we try to just transcend a part of us that is, is part of the human system. It is unwise to do that, and and if not impossible, so it's a befriending self and befriending this part of self, I would say.

Moira  25:44  
Very interesting. Now, what's your advice for people to get off the story? The ones who are like, it's like, me, me, me, the me story, you know, and, and stop searching for who you are out there? Like how exactly, help people to find out within I know, you know, I do meditation prayer every day. I connect through nature, I connect through my guides, you know. I have a connection right now, as you and I are having this heartfelt conversation, it's that connection. How do people get away from that? Like, you know, like, Well, what about me? Versus? Yeah,

Katherine  26:21  
Well, it's, it's the counterintuitive part, that the more you search outside for you, which can even be something, you know, obviously, we can feel good for a little bit, but then it's like, we have a cup with holes at the bottom, and all that drains. Because there's, there's a sense of something's incomplete within me, without something from someone else. And of course, when we're children, we do need those, those key components to our own sense of well being and connection to others. But once that, you know, adulthood has kind of unfolded, it is really to turn within and find those places within ourselves that feel unloved or not enough, or that we don't belong, and, and have some powerful practices and, and help with having that sense of wholeness restored. Sometimes I feel like Moira my job as a therapist, is restoration work. It is just to restore the sense of wholeness, that somehow did not complete or was lost along the way. And from that place of wholeness, I propose that we are interconnected to others at a human level and a spiritual level. And so the sense of, 'I need something because I didn't get enough from my childhood', I need this attention, or I need this validation settles down quite a bit, because we're in a more of a state of wholeness, whole brain and whole beingness. And that it's lovely to receive love, of course, and welcoming that. But it isn't a search for that from a compensation of not having it inside.

Moira  28:03  
Mm hmm. I love that. Yeah. I also wrote this quote from your book, it's a wonderful book, really I think ...

Katherine  28:11  
Oh, Moira..

Moira  28:11  
Everyone should buy this book iit's just so great. Such wisdom, you state you are not just alive, you are aliveness, you're not only present, you are presence, you're not merely aware, you are awareness. Now, I just love that. How do people really, you know begin to understand this possibility for themselves? You know, not Yes, I love that, you know, I am possible possibility we're infinite possibility? Not, you know that I can't do something or it's not Yeah, but that's just Well,

Katherine  28:44  
I know I, when that moment happened for me, and it really was a moment of like a waking up moment that I experienced for the first time because I had been raised in a really lovely Christian environment. It wasn't traumatic at all. It was a Presbyterian Church. So it was fairly liberal, even though it's a conservative, small town, and I was never forced to kind of be baptized or so I didn't have any kind of problematic relationship to God or religion. But it also lived outside of me, it was like God was out there somewhere, and had not been introduced to the idea of non dualistic teachings where I am that where I am in human form of source, but intrinsically is connected to it as are other beings. And so when that moment happened for me, that was I could have read these words that you just read that I wrote before that moment, and I would have maybe thought like, that sounds cool. And that would feel good. But it didn't resonate in that way that this is truth. So I hope your listeners and you as happened to me, something happens that is almost It's kind of startling of like, oh my god, it changes everything. And so changes our relationship to death, it changes our relationship to even our human journey changes our idea of God, and God in others. And certainly speaking of diversity, so it's everything. And I wanted in my book to both speak to the human journey, but not limit the idea of wakefulness to just being a great human being. But again, we are connected to that, that is beyond us. So thank you for pulling that out. And I, and I hope that it, people can find a way to find their, their moment of aliveness in those words.

Moira  30:48  
It brings an experience, I had Katherine with Cliff and I went to Argentina. And we were in Mendoza. And we went, we I won that trip, by the way. Wonderful. Yes. And we part of the prize was going to a winery in the Mendosa. And we were sitting - very exclusive, not many tables on the outside, on the patio. And it was like a five foot course meal tied in with pairings with your wine. And we're sitting looking out at the winery. And as I sat there, I had this moment, and I never had this before. This was years ago now. But I was looking at Cliff and taking in the side and this beautiful experience. And all of a sudden I said to Cliff, ah, it's like I didn't step away. But it's like, My soul was looking through this experience for my eyes. And I said, a cliff. "My soul is looking through my eyes right now." Like, you know, it's like, yeah. And just taking in that, like, you talked about expansiveness, in which we're here to expand and learn and play and be curious and grow. And it was such a beautiful connection. It was like, Wow, just like a not a long experience. But it stuck with me, that's for sure.

Katherine  32:05  
Absolutely. And the idea that instead of, again, not just at a human level, like separation, anxiety, or attachment that is compromised between child and caregiver, a parent, this idea that just at the human existential level, that the pain is about a sense of separation, and that this undoes all of that. And the I'm such a fan of direct experience, in terms of spiritual path, even though there are great teachings that can again, feel really good and make a lot of sense and, and and feel true. That direct experience you had as was my experience, we are so fortunate, so blessed to have that as part of our own journey. Yeah, yeah.

Moira  32:57  
Now, you said about how pain so pain is separation. And you also talked about path versus pathology? Can you tell us a bit more about that?

Katherine  33:06  
Yeah. So in befriending you this first aspect of wakefulness, we've been speaking of different parts of the a lot of folks that have come to me, you know, even though I don't prescribe medication, you know, come with a litany of diagnoses, kind of a trail behind them, many of which are accurate from a diagnostic perspective, criteria perspective. But what can happen, especially depended on how those diagnoses were delivered. And, and what was understood at the time in terms of neuroplasticity, that the brain actually grows and can heal. And we didn't always know that in psychotherapy, people get pretty kind of identified. It's not just Hi, my name is Katherine. But Hi, I have bipolar or I am bipolar. And so I tried in that little section to create the idea that you are not that diagnosis for, for lack of a better word. Our medical system treats, pathology so that it can you know, although again, it is also humane so that people can get treatment and so that we understand well, what's different from this diagnosis then that diagnosis so it has its place, but my work was really to help people reframe that so that if you number one, you may or may actually transcend that diagnosis through time and through good deep personal work and trauma recovery. But number two is part of your path. And so it's a different than it's a negative, it's more like wow, you wouldn't be here today maybe without some of what your your response to your trauma, which is often the pathology and trauma response, and then getting help for it. It's like it brought you into the waters of healing. And then those brought you into the waters of who knows the successful relationship you have right now or enjoying your career in a different way that you wouldn't have otherwise, kind of thriving versus surviving. So just it's a big reframe around those of us that had pretty significant diagnosis. And but that kind of defined who we were.

Moira  35:23  
Mm hmm. I'm just taking that in Katherine.

Katherine  35:29  
I can feel that you are. Yeah, yeah.

Moira  35:32  
Is there an exercise you'd like to share with the listeners today around this whole idea of, you know, where we're going today and embodied wakefulness is or freedom from the mind? And I did that before. But

Katherine  35:46  
yeah, no, no, that's okay. You know, what's coming forward to offer just intuitively is the idea of hearts work. You know, in a very specific way, maybe it can be the part of us that has been frightened of our emotion. And then there's another. This is kind of duality work, a part of us that has, and feels emotion might be pretty shut down and small. So parts more were within ourselves, as called intrapersonal work can talk to each other. So the part of me scared to feel maybe as you've talked about anger, right, the part of you scared to feel angry, could actually talk to your anger, or your anger could talk to you. And it's an it's a different kind of thing than traditional inner dialogue or self talk, just like how I am, you know, am I kind of myself, if I'm having a bad day, it's actually having conversation between parts. Another example of this would be, as I mentioned before, my core, so which remembers the truth of who I am, gently and lovingly speaking to the part of me confused about my worth. She's 14, of course, she's confused. And I can gently remind her, I know what's true, you don't have to believe it. I know what's true. The core of me knows what's true. And so parts work is can be a young part to an adult part, it can be a part of us, like, I can talk to my mind, Oh, you're very busy today. Okay, I see that you just have a lot. It's like a child on a couch, bouncing around and you know, does does not want to settle down. If I fight with that child, it's just going to activate that child. But if I have a conversation with that part of me, there's kind of a, almost like a negotiation, kind of, okay, how could what can we figure out together? I'm trying to sit and have some quietness inside, you want to think about all the things to do today?

Moira  37:56  
Mm hmm. I know, in my work, conscious core transformation, that it's also the age that comes up for the person, the child, the inner child, and also there's a part of the process, I do that, that whatever that child wants, because they've been holding this energy for so long. Give it to them. And it could just be love, or that's right, smile, something simple. It's not complicated.

Katherine  38:20  
That's right. That's right. I think that the, especially from standpoint, we are a source of the kind of love that is beyond what we can imagine that we have turned towards self, rather than just moving outwardly. You we know what we need in ways we may have never discovered. You know, what that child in you needs. And I know what that took, because I was I was a child as were you. And so just really empowering people to not try to be an island or be necessarily individualistic, like, like, let support happen, where that's helpful. But there's, there's so much internally that we can bring to the table.

Moira  39:04  
Mm hmm. During the inner work, Katherine, we I know we've read a few things that could read a lot from your book, but is there a passage that you would like to read in your book, as you know, we're coming to a close for today and that you'd like to leave with the listeners?

Katherine  39:21  
Well, um, you know, I'm looking through it quickly. I, the two places that we we noted would be kind of what I would say. So I don't have one that's jumping out at me without taking taking time on the show and I don't want to that. I, I would just, what I'd like to offer is just a another piece of work that in addition to the gifts that I'm giving your listeners, that is the gift of Anger. And I don't, it's more than what's in the book. And it isn't poetry that I can read you and I don't have that pulled up right now. But it's kind of moving from an idea of not just accepting our human experience, our emotional experiences, neither positive nor negative, and really meeting those parts of ourselves in parts where, but actually beginning to move from a place of can we meet anger, our own and others with love, which is for some people, especially in these times Moira where there's a lot of pain, and there's a lot of anger, and there's a lot of not meeting with love. And more meeting saying was same. That's what I'm feeling called to just to offer both to plant that idea. And I will say that to people like meeting anger with love, no anger is dangerous. And actually, it's really, really important to unpack what is happening around us, within us and around us, such that we can bring this idea of who we are the instrument of love that we are part of source, and actually to the world right now and actually to our human relationships and communities. So

Moira  41:17  
That's beautiful. I know that they'll enjoy that. Thank you.

Katherine  41:21  
Yeah, you're so welcome.

Moira  41:23  
I, we're going to have all the gifts from you Catherine below in the links to their gift and how they can reach out to you will also be in the show notes. And I want to thank you so much. This has been again, so enjoyable. And you know, again, it's River to Ocean. That's why I had you back and I can see me having you back again because I think this

Katherine  41:46  
absolutely I would love to and if any of the particular other aspects really resonate or come forward with your with your audience and your community that there's a need. I just so appreciated the invitation and look forward to that.

Moira  42:04  
Thank you, Katherine. Thank you, again from sharing from your heart and soul your wisdom on welcoming in a new year with your unmasked self. Namaste.

Katherine  42:15  
Namaste.

Close  42:20  
Thank you for listening to the Heart Soul Wisdom podcast with Moira Sutton. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please join our community at moirasutton.com and continue the discussion on our Facebook page Create the Life You Love. You will be part of a global movement connecting with other heart centered people who are consciously creating the life they love on their own terms. Together we can raise our consciousness for the greater good of humanity and for our planet.